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Post by mard on Nov 10, 2006 15:23:02 GMT 1
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Tardon
Fallen
Pink Bunneh (Bites!)
Fiery
Posts: 1,529
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Post by Tardon on Nov 10, 2006 16:34:37 GMT 1
I have to agree that 90% is a strange number... either make it like 50% or 100% :S But perhaps 100% was to much for a trainable skill.
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Post by mard on Dec 1, 2006 11:18:36 GMT 1
recent changes on beta :
also, teh kalgan has spoken :
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Felbane
Council
Lord of Ice
Frosty
Posts: 1,136
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Post by Felbane on Dec 1, 2006 11:42:07 GMT 1
*scratches head* ookay, so if I get this right, you can now easier get improved sap, which is good. but on the other hand, getting those 25 energy from finishing moves just became a lot harder since some of the combat musthave points were moved into combat tree, making you waste points to get the required 10 in assassination. Unless you're combat daggers ofc.
in all, I think the changes are good, though surprise attacks is a bit silly now.
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Post by mard on Dec 1, 2006 16:07:19 GMT 1
after playing with talent calc for a bit ... i dont really like this change :S or, well : backstab moved to assassination = good snd moved to combat = horrible snd was nice filler on the way to relentless strikes and lethality, with this change combat swords builds will be forced to put 3 points in combat into snd, instead into some nice pvp hybrid fillers like blade twisting, imp sprint, imp kick, riposte. we'll have to sacrifice one of those ;S thats the best what i was able to get : www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=fhg0oZGcEzMVzVb0ox (lvl60) www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=whg0oxZGcEzrVzVr0ot (lvl70) on level 70 it's actually going to be pretty good ( got everything i want there, i may take 1 point out of lethality, 2 out of imp sprint and 2 out of weapon exp, and put them into mod tho), but i dont like sacrificing a lot of usefull stuf on lvl 60. about other changes, CoS and Blind on 60 sec and 180 sec timers = madness. i suppose they had to move elusivness down the tree to avoid everyone running around with 90 sec blind timer, so it's fine. surprise attacks is really, REALLY meh now, it was meh-ish before, but with this change it's, imo, garbage ... it's supposed to be 41 talent ffs ; ;. evasion got nerfed, preparation change is an arena nerf, but CoS on 1 min timer AND being able to reset it at will would be indeed overpowered in arena fights. edit : oh, and btw, thistle tea and renataki's trinket scales with gear now. down. they restore only 40 energy at level 70. another edit for more stuff ! : - Improved Sap now 2 ranks, 50%/100%. about freaking time ! - Wound Poison(all ranks) has been changed. Now has a 30% chance to instantly deal damage(increases with poison rank), and reduce healing effects used on target by 10% for 15 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times. *gasp* it's finally going to be useful ! (depends on damage done, but still !)
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Felbane
Council
Lord of Ice
Frosty
Posts: 1,136
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Post by Felbane on Dec 1, 2006 17:08:45 GMT 1
!!! its percentage based now! thats pure awesomeness. there's a lot of bosses that are affected by wound poison, that heal themselves. ebonroc for one. now it will actually make a difference.
blind on 180 sec timer is MADNESS, but then again, I love it. shorter cooldowns FTW!
there will be replacements for the tea and the charm, theres no other reason to scale them. There is one point and one point only with the expansion, its the rebirth of the game. wham, in one go, all the amassed riches and uber gear setups etc etc need to be replaced, even the most diehard raider can once again experience the game as he/she used to, leveling up and finding new gear. if there is ANY gear that will be useful at lvl 70, you can bet your ass blizzard will fix that.
I agree on the snd change, but yet I disagree. its horrible for us combat rogues, but its great for the shape of the tree's. I always loved the way rogue talents always leave some really nice talent juuust out of reach. its balanced not by offering a complete set of playstyles, and not by only offering a few worthwhile talents, but by offering TOO MANY worthwhile talents. all other tree's should be like the rogue's imo.
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Post by roward on Dec 2, 2006 4:54:47 GMT 1
Agreed Felb. Way too many nice talents :S besides, hemo rogues will now be able to get a dagger, and backstab nicely when needed, means less dmg from hemo but should be counter balanced by stab. Nice change on this. I guess this new build will now have some success amongst rogues that don't want to go assa for pvp: www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=ihxcoxZhZEMIcMMRc0st(Did that pretty quickly, might have some changes to do for the best pvp stuff) Premeditation+ Initative means 5 combo points when starting combat, if you cheap shot, that is. Nice against warriors, to expose armor right at the begining. Master of sub+ shadowstep means 2 hitting a caster in 2 secs if he doesn't blink, fear or deathcoil fast enough :S (10% dmg more+20% from shadowstep is meh on cloth ). improved vanish and blind to get back to stealth at will. Back to Master of subtelty and shadowstep. Preparation to reset all this stuff. Win. Looks really like an imba pvp build, to me. I might be wrong at some point though. Though I don't know how things will be for casters at lvl 70, as I don't know much about the dmg output. EDIT: Oh I forgot cheat death...if that talent works properly...meh. Even means that a rogue ambushing you when you're low hp could actually miss and come out of stealth for nothing. Not to say that players will be quite stuned to see their target still up after an imba finishing move/spell. (Who said execute ? ) -Row
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Post by zikorez on Dec 3, 2006 10:40:37 GMT 1
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Felbane
Council
Lord of Ice
Frosty
Posts: 1,136
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Post by Felbane on Dec 4, 2006 11:11:07 GMT 1
thats a buff, not a nerf. (at least for rogues)
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Post by Kurse on Mar 8, 2007 16:25:48 GMT 1
So... after the dust has settled (if it has settled yet) how does everyone feel about the tBC rogue ?
So far in my experience, which is all PvE, there's not much difference. Rogues still seem to pretty much top the damage metres if they spec right and utility is still highly situational. The only new ability I'm using on a regular basis is cloak of shadows.
I don't suppose it will happen but they really ought to make imp sap trainable, since you pretty much have to have it if you want to be of any use in heroic dungeons. But then if you do take it, you are losing 7 talent points every one of which could be increasing your dps - which is still the only reason you would want a rogue on a raid. So you pretty much have to choose between 5 man spec and raid spec. Does any other class have this total lack of flexibility ? I'm sure most have PvE vs PvP decisions to make, but PvP vs 5 man vs raid ??
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Post by mard on Mar 8, 2007 16:53:51 GMT 1
reserved for incoming whine barrage when i actually have some time to type it all.
right, where to start ... main problems : 1. crappy ( extremely crappy !) itemisation, even more painful with recent nerf to t4. examples ?
Helm of the Claw 237 Armor +25 Agility +21 Stamina [x] Yellow Socket [x] Meta Socket Socket Bonus: +4 Resilience Rating Equip: Improves hit rating by 14. Equip: Increases attack power by 66.
Netherblade Facemask 271 Armor +23 Agility +33 Stamina [x] Meta Socket [x] Red Socket Socket Bonus: +4 Agility Equip: Improves hit rating by 10. Equip: Increases attack power by 70.
or even
Stealther's Helmet of Second Sight Binds when picked up Head Leather 226 Armor +24 Agility +18 Stamina Red Socket Blue Socket Yellow Socket Socket Bonus: +8 Attack Power Durability 60 / 60 Equip: Improves hit rating by 13. Equip: Increases attack power by 60. Equip: Allows the bearer to see into the ghost world of Shadowmoon Valley. Only effective in Shadowmoon Valley. Item Level 109.
Both stealthers helm and helm of the claw take like 1hour to get, tops. tier4 = downing prince malchazeer in karazhan. but why the hell bother if there are lvl 68 blues that are just simply better ?
Both t4 and t5 shoulders were nerfed recently and have now +dodge instead of +crit or +hit. Which doesn’t make any sense. If I want d**n pvp stats I go and pvp for my gear, be it battlegrounds or arenas. From dungeon sets I expect pve stats, +hit, +crit, +ap, not some crappy dodge that does nothing for my pve performance. And don’t even play this “but you need dodge to avoid cleaves” card, because that’s “problem 2”
2. tbc is hilariously anti-melee. Every other trashmob and every boss has some way to screw melee over. 360d cleaves, melee damage auras, whirlwinds, damage shields, point blank aoe, you name it. Ever seen Gruul’s fight ? Do you know what shatter does to melee ? How insanely anti-melee is Nightbane ? Not to say some silly 5 man bosses, like that flame guy in arcatraz ? Maiden of virtue trash with its -50% melee damage debuff ? Hey, hold on, there’s -50% magic damage debuff from them too ! Oh , wait, you can just stay out of its range, nevermind. I assure you, its nothing fun. Try some heroic instances. 5k cleaves from trash, 8k cleaves from bosses are nothing really high there. Legionaires in Furnace cant be meleed by anything, their sweeping strikes hit plate for 5k. Sweeping strikes from those big nagas in steamvault hit for 3k. Second boss in furnace pretty much cant be killed if your group is mainly melee, because of his damage aura. The list goes on and on. I don’t mind frontal cleaves. I don’t mind being cleaved because I was too dumb or too slow to move away. I do, however, mind being punished for rolling melee class on every d**n boss in every d**n instance.
Mages, warlocks and hunters do their damage from 41yards, not soaking much healers mana (if at all on some fights), provide additional utility (like it or not, water / food is your utility, just like the best cc in the game aka sheep, so are health stones, fears, traps, misdirection …). All rogues bring to instance is dps. But we also have to stand 5 yards from the boss in order to deal damage, If we’re running from cleaves, pbaoe, whirlwinds and all the other stuff they throw at us we deal no damage. And yet, even if specced directly for pve, ranged classes come close to us on most of the fights, and even are better than us in terms of dps on some fights. With all their additional utility. I know, I know, rogues have utility too ! We can, like, stunlock mobs ! Totally ! Wait, we can’t. To stun the mob we need combo points. Raid dps specs don’t have enough combo point generation to stun anything fast. Builds that do, don’t have enough dps to justify bringing rogue to the dungeon in first place. If I stun something I don’t deal damage, its that simple. That’s of course assuming that mob is stunable, and guess what ! Most mobs in raid dungeons is not ! Not to say bosses. So what utility are we talking again ? Lockpicking ? Please … that leads to problem 3 :
3. specs and lack of utility. In order to deal damage in raids I have to spec for it. Just like every other class. Other classes, however, don’t have to spec for it’s cc. So basically, if I want to go to heroic instance, I need improved sap. But improved sap is useless in “real” raids (karazhan and further) because nothing is sappable. So I either waste 7 points to get imp sap (2 in combat daggers build) and gimp my dps, or I’ll have problems with getting into groups for heroics. But if I do that, then I hurt my dps (and its not some minor dps sacrificed here) so im even less usefull in raids than I was before. Respec ? I don’t feel like burning 50g every time I get to go to raid / heroic. There are 2 things blizzard can do about it : 1st. Make imp sap trainable. Wont happen. 2nd. Allow people to have 2 talent builds and to switch between them on some sort of cooldown (24h, 48h, something). Even less likely to happen. Other utility : stuns. Most stuff is not stunable, so that’s hardly any utility. Blind : again, most stuff is immune. And that’s it. No more utility.
So yeah, that’s how I feel about rogues in tbc. That’s probably too long and noone will read it, but you asked for opinions so here it is.
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Post by Saedoc on Mar 8, 2007 17:08:31 GMT 1
I dont have a rogue so not gonna comment on most stuff but rogues are great for heroics with or without sap. Most mobs (atleast in coilfang) are stunnable in heroics and a stunned mob cuts down the need for healin by lots and lots.
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Grul
Fallen
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Post by Grul on Mar 8, 2007 17:53:49 GMT 1
So you pretty much have to choose between 5 man spec and raid spec. Does any other class have this total lack of flexibility ? I'm sure most have PvE vs PvP decisions to make, but PvP vs 5 man vs raid ?? Similar for lots of other classes I'm afraid! Even if you lose those 7 points towards your DPS, you'll still likely be the top DPS in the raid, just slightly lower than if you didn't take imp. sap. In the protection tree for warriors, you have things like: Improved Revenge (great in 5-mans, rubbish in raids since bosses and most mobs are immune) Improved Shield Bash (nice in 5-mans, raid mobs/bosses mostly immune) Improved Taunt (life-saving in 5-mans, useless in raids due to taunt immune mobs) Improved Demo Shout/Improved Thunderclap (nice in 5-mans, since you'll probably be the only warrior, less useful in raids (25 mans) since you'll likely have another warrior to do them for you) Tons of 5-mans are full of non-humanoids anyway, and it's not like rogues can't help in those encounters just because they don't have imp. sap
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Post by mard on Mar 8, 2007 18:03:08 GMT 1
no other class has to spec for its cc.
sheep is always sheep. seduce is always seduce. fear always works the same. freezing trap always works the same, you can make it last longer with talents but it always keeps target in big block of ice.
basic sap is not even close to talented version, sapping in heroic without imp sap means certain death.
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Post by Kurse on Mar 8, 2007 20:03:01 GMT 1
Thinking about it more they wouldn't even have to make imp sap trainable, just make sap usable in combat, it would still be the most weak-ass CC in the game, since thats obviously big on blizzards priority list, but then at least non-imp sap would have some sort of use and you might have a reason to use vanish outside a raid that isn't to do with vastly screwing up. I think you possibly go at little far Mard, saying the Netherblade mask is worse than the 68 quest rewards, depends how you value stamina I guess, but anyway I would agree that the upgrade is laughable given the amount of effort required. Grul - ok so warriors got the shaft too, I doubt anyone will argue with you there - but just talking about the talents: sure every class has talents that are only situationally usefull in every tree - I'm talking about what I see as an essential talent (for heroic 5 man) being 7 points deep in the PvP tree, the tree I would usually have 0 points in and with 5 of those points being wasted if you are not using a dagger.
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