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Post by Samathul on Jul 6, 2006 12:01:46 GMT 1
40 swings misses, 27 swings hits, 33 swings crits: 27+33*2 = 93
Adding 7% crit: 40 swings misses, 20 swings hits, 40 swings crits: (20+40*2) / (27+33*2) = DPS increased 7.52%
Adding 5% hit: 35 swings misses, 25 swings hits, 40 swings crits: (25+40*2) / (20+40*2) = DPS increased 5%
See the difference?
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Grul
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Post by Grul on Jul 6, 2006 12:03:56 GMT 1
If your assumption is correct, then do a test. Do 1000 swings against a mob and record your crit %. Do another 1000 swings against the same mobs, but this time add +hit, and only +hit equipment, while every other stat in your gear remains the same as in the first test. I've already done this I use DamageMeters to records my hit/miss/crits against mobs (it records it by attack too, so I can look at only normal melee rather than specials). In my DPS gear, I've got roughly a 20% crit rate. Adding or removing +hit gear has no affect on this whatsoever, over time my crit rate stays at roughly 20%. If I keep the same crit rate and add +hit gear, my overall damage goes up, but number of crits stay the same (extra damage is from misses converted to hits). Also, it's not an assumption, this is how blizz says the game works +hit only incurs a penalty to you crit % if you define your crit % as: % chance that a hit will be a critThis isn't how the game works though, in WoW your crit % in it is defined as: % chance that an attack will be a crit
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Post by Grul on Jul 6, 2006 12:08:51 GMT 1
40 swings misses, 27 swings hits, 33 swings crits: 27+33*2 = 93 Adding 7% crit: 40 swings misses, 20 swings hits, 40 swings crits: (20+40*2) / (27+33*2) = DPS increased 7.52% Adding 5% hit: 35 swings misses, 25 swings hits, 40 swings crits: (25+40*2) / (20+40*2) = DPS increased 5% See the difference? Those figures take into account having both +hit and +crit added though. As a base, take 20% miss, 60% hit, 20% crit, 1 damage per hit: 20 misses, 60 hits, 20 crits = 60 + 20*2 = 100 damage Add 5% hit: 15 misses, 65 hits, 20 crits = 65 + 20*2 = 105 damage Adding 5% crit instead to the base: 20 misses, 55 hits, 25 crits = 55 + 25*2 = 105 damage So both get a 5% increase no matter which you choose.
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Post by Slyvar on Jul 6, 2006 12:22:40 GMT 1
Just a quick check - how do crits work for melee in terms of damage? Primarily I've got 2 questions:
1) Is a base crit x2 damage? 2) Are there talents which can change this?
I ask because taking a leaf out of how it works for casters (I'll get around to posting the maths later) a normal crit gives you x1.5 damage. With that level of crit, +hit is better. If, however, you add something like ruin which puts your crits up to x2.5 damage, +crit usually gives you the better increase in DPS.
I know it's not quite the same for rogues/warriors, but the logic may work out to be roughly the same.
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Grul
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Post by Grul on Jul 6, 2006 12:47:41 GMT 1
1) Is a base crit x2 damage? 2) Are there talents which can change this? 1) Yep, does twice weapon damage 2) Kinda... for warriors there is stuff like: - Deep wounds (a crit puts a DOT on the mob which does 60% of weapon damage over time) - Impale (crits from special attacks do an extra 20% damage) - Flurry (a crit gives a 30% speed increase for next 3 attacks) There are also talents for which +hit is more important (i.e. sword spec, where a successful attack has a chance to give you another attack - in this case, better to turn a miss into a hit rather than a hit into a crit, as it would proc more then). Same for abilities where the effect is more important than damage (i.e. more important for a hamstring to land at all, rather than worrying about it critting).
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Post by Samathul on Jul 7, 2006 12:39:47 GMT 1
Argh, I give up! No matter how hard I try, I just can't get +hit to equal +crit. More over, Grul's post about his actual crit rate equalising his crit rate from gear is bobbling my mind, since if it's "crit rate over all swings" (which his addon is calculating) then the actual crits that lands on the mobs is considerably lower than the crit rate would suggest. Otoh, if the addon calculates his crit rate form the hits that actual lands on the mob, it makes crits contributing to the overall DPS proportionally higher than +hits, or the other possibility is that when he wears +crit gear, a piece of equipment stating having "+2 crit" would in fact make a "+2,some-user-invisible-number +crit" when wow calculates the actual DPS on the mob.
I know it is just my narrow mind that doesn't see the forest from the trees and I'm not grasping some miniscule, but earthshattering thing amongst the lines, which in the end makes this whole thing fuzzy to me.
And then there's the stupid itemization point difference...
Think I just let it go, and try to drink as much as possible in trying to wipe out as many traces as possible from this thread in my mind...
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Post by Slyvar on Jul 7, 2006 13:31:25 GMT 1
Sama, I'll let Grul answer your post but I can clear up for you why you should ignore itemised point differences in this discussion. How +crit and +hit interact depend on if you are talking about PvE or PvP. At level 60 you will, at maximum, only ever have abou a 3% miss chance on a player. As a pose to a 17% miss chance on a mob. Therefore, in PvP you can only ever benefit from a very small amount of +hit. Which makes +crit generally more useful from a PvP point of view. I dont know how blizz calculates their point values, but I have a strong suspicion that it's from both the PvE and PvP utility of the item, with maybe even a little bias towards PvP. This discussion, I presume, revolves around PvE uses. So ignore the point values and look at the maths
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Post by Samathul on Jul 7, 2006 13:47:30 GMT 1
So ignore the point values and look at the maths Can't just blindly ignore them, since they control the stat distribution in PvE reward items aswell. Same ilevel melee drop from Ragnaros has way more +hit than +crit, if the stats would only consist of those two stats. I feel so darn depressed about this. I just failed myself on this stuff, and it feels crap. Do I need to take a break, when I feel depressed from the mathematics in a game?
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Post by Slyvar on Jul 7, 2006 13:56:18 GMT 1
Also sama, dont know if this will help you at all:
Adding 1% to hit means 1 more blow hits. If you do 500 damage per hit, this results in an extra 500 damage over 100 blows.
Adding 1% to crit means 1 more blow crits than did before, but NO EXTRA BLOWS HIT. That means that one hit that previously did 500 damage will NOW do 1000 damage. Again the overall damage increase over 100 blows is still 500.
I think where you might be getting confused is by thinking that adding 1% to crit increases the overall damage by 1000 over 100 blows. But to get an extra 1000 damage in the example above you would need 1 more blow to land in 100, for which you need 1% hit, AND for that new blow to crit, which is what the 1% crit would do.
I think another reason you may have been confused is that one of your previous equations had a few mistakes:
This is what it should have been, except this time I have used a 7% increase in to hit so the comparison is clearer:
Formula 1:
40 swings misses, 27 swings hits with no crits, 33 swings hits and crits: 27+33*2 = 93
Adding 7% crit to formula 1: 40 swings misses, 20 swings hits with no crit, 40 swings hits and crit: (20+40*2) / (27+33*2) = DPS increased 7.52%
Adding 7% hit to formula 1: 33 swings misses, 34 swings hits with no crit, 33 swings hit and crit: (34+33*2) / (27+33*2) = DPS increased 7.52%
So by these calculations you get the same increase out of +crit and +hit for melee. That means that the only other factor to take account of is additional effects that proc either on a hit, or on a crit. Which we haven't done. This means that +hit would be more important when you want an effect to happen (like a sunder or hamstring) but I suspect that +crit has more effects that proc from it that increase DPS, which might explain why blizz gives it a few more points on items.
Does that help?
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Post by Samathul on Jul 7, 2006 14:28:04 GMT 1
I'm aware that they produce the same amount of DPS. What's puzzling me is the way how adding +hit and +crit changes the DPS generation proportions from those 2 stats and how they affect the big picture and if that's the reason why they're misbalanced in itemization way. 20 crits and 40 hits: 20/40 = 50% DPS comes from crits, 50% DPS comes from hits. Add +1 crit 21/39 = 53% DPS from crits Add +1 hit to the original setup 20/41 = 48.7% DPS from crits Add +1 crit and +1 hit to the original setup 21/40 = 52.5% DPS from crits. 53%+48.7% is not 100% hence, there's a slight favour for crit... But seriously, stop trying to help me! Besides you should be getting drunk in London already, instead of wasting your time in the forums and trying to help a lost cause. I'll never understand these things to the bone anyways.
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Post by Slyvar on Jul 7, 2006 14:41:07 GMT 1
*ignores request to stop helping* Sama this isn't clear. Do you mean 20 CRITS and 40 HITS? Not 20 hits and 40 swings? Or do you mean that out of 40 swings, 20 are hits and 20 are misses? I presume it's the former? Let me know what you mean and I'll show you what the figures should look like
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Post by Samathul on Jul 7, 2006 14:43:46 GMT 1
Yep, it's a typo. By swings I mean hits of course. I'll edit it for further confusion.
*spanks stupid brains for making a mistake*
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Grul
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Post by Grul on Jul 7, 2006 14:45:53 GMT 1
One things about point values though... For warriors who dual wield, they have a base 24% miss chance on normal attacks. For warriors who wield a 2-hander have a base 5% miss chance on normal attacks. All special attacks (mortal strike, sunders, etc.) have a base 5% chance to miss (regardless of dual/single wield). Ignore level 63 raid bosses, this means that warriors using 2H weapons max out their +hit stat at +5% hit, anything more than that is wasted. +crit on the other hand, is never likely to be wasted, and no matter what a warrior uses, getting +30% crit will never be wasted. It could be that Blizz rates +hit less than +crit since it's a stat that is more easily maxed out, and therefore more likely to be wasted on items beyond a certain point. It's mostly people who dual wield who rate +hit much more greatly than +crit, which is only a certain number of the warrior population. There are also many talents that add value to crits, Blizz may have taken this into account when calculating itemisation points of +crit items. And as Sly said, it could also be that they work out the worth of +hit/+crit both in PvP and in PvP, and since +crit is much better for burst damage in PvP, they assign more worth to it. Either that or Blizz just has insane developers who try to break the minds of players by putting random and broken math into their games There's nothing to stop them re-evaluting their points distribution and changing them at random because they're wrong either (like they did with the +defense stat, when they reduced the +defense on every single item by 1/3 one day).
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Post by Slyvar on Jul 7, 2006 14:51:42 GMT 1
Right on that basis Sama, if you have 40 hits and 20 crits, than that is in fact 60 times you have damaged the mob. Which means you dont start from a 50/50 split of damage from hits and crits, you start off with a 66/33 split I think. Haven't got time to work through if this gives you the right figures - I'm at work still
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Post by Samathul on Jul 7, 2006 15:18:15 GMT 1
Now you're comparing hits, not DPS, Sly. See? I just confuse you guys more Found the root of all evil and confusiong thingies! The temperature outside is 31C and I just can't straight in this heat. My thermometer is in the shadow but my livingroom however is not, and I'm being baked inside in a cozy 34C room temperature. And this has been continuing for the past 2 weeks already... Please, send me money so I can get to Londond and experience some colder air and rain!
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