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Post by Slyvar on Jul 4, 2006 16:48:46 GMT 1
He he Sama - looks like there's a whole new world of maths for you to explore here! Have fun
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Post by Slyvar on Jul 4, 2006 16:55:50 GMT 1
Sama,
I dont have time to check your figures as I'm at work - but do they take account of the fact that adding +1% crit doesn't increase your chance to hit at all?
It's just when you say "+crit is +hit and damage rolled into one" it implies that +1% crit also adds 1% to hit, which it doesn't. It takes 1% away from the hit range and transfers it to the crit range. Thus if you give up +1% to hit for +1% crit, your overall chance to hit goes down.
Um I'm sure you have taken that into account, and when I get home I'm sure I'll delete this post!
Sly
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Post by Samathul on Jul 4, 2006 20:31:44 GMT 1
Yeah Sly, read the part where I say "My math is just schemantics and they're incorrect." Just because of the reason what you stated there :}
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Post by Kurse on Jul 5, 2006 1:13:54 GMT 1
I tested out a +2% crit trinket vs a +2% hit trinket with damage metres on level 60 mobs of the same type. With my fairly standard combat sword build and having +10% to hit, 18% chance to crit already from talents and equiptment. I also tried to keep the combat sequence I used both as consistant as possible but also relevant to how I fight in "real situation" (basicly keeping slice and dice up and sinister strike spam, but with no other finishers and no blade flurry or adrenaline rush.) Anyway the crit trinket was much more damaging, and also seemed to give much more consistant dps across different fights. I guess there is going to be an optimal balance between the two and I'm now going to do a bit more testing to see if dropping a bit of to hit in favour of other stuff might be worth it
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Post by Kurse on Jul 5, 2006 12:41:30 GMT 1
Dunno what the worth of it is but I also messed around with the dps calculator here: www.wow-equip.com/annoyingly it isn't yet updated for 1.11 items (which I have two of) but this also shows more dps for the +crit trinket, although the difference is less marked than my in game tests were suggesting... possibly I was unconsciously favouring the +crit trinket when I tested it as it was my gut feeling that it would be better. Or another possibility is that since one of the items I can't feed in gives +2% to hit that I am hovering around the level of +to hit where adding more is giving diminishing returns to the point where adding another +2% would do almost nothing. What I have read also confirms what Grul said - there's only one roll for each swing - with values attributed to each of the possible outcomes (I think there is also "block" tho) - so it is not possible for a crit to miss. A little confusingly however for the cold blood talent which boasts a "gauranteed crit" - that actually can miss as the crit part of the table just eats the hit bit but doesn't override the different ways you can miss, so its approx 80% l to hit and crit but the rest of the time it will miss, be dodged or parried like any other swing.
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Post by Samathul on Jul 5, 2006 13:55:08 GMT 1
I just say that melee calculations are too confusing because all of these oddities in theorycraft vs. actual game. Take a look at this blue post: forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-blizzard-archive-en&t=15&p=1&tmp=1#post15It says that:"WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks". The confusing part for me is: Are all swings considered as attacks or just the ones that actually hits the mob? If you look at the part2 of the post, the examples can only be valid, if the +crit changes are only considered against attacks, that actually hit the mob (The first part of the post then can only mean that "attacks" are swings that actually hit the mob). The crit chance can't be against all swings, since that would excliciptly increase an actual "landed crit rate" change in the +crit part of the example. If it would help you at all, try to think +hit being a modifier for "plain non-crit attacks", rather than "ordinary attacks + crits". My belief is, that a developer intended +hit to affect +crits aswell, but the coders fubared the thing, and made the game behave like the part2 in the blue post above. Codemonkeys have a bad habit of just coding, instead of thinking what they just coded... Best thing is to rely on DPS-meters imo. Confusing? Hell yeah! edit: A mathematical way of showing it: Developers: Coders, code us a "('crit%'*'miss%' + 'regular hit%'*'miss') * '+hit%'"! And the coders replied in chorus:"Sir yes sir! Will code: " 'crit%'*'miss%' + 'regular hit%'*'miss' * '+hit%' "! Uhhhhh, probably confused you guys even more, since I'm confusing myself in here aswell. Should have passed a few of those cold ones while way to home...
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Post by Slyvar on Jul 5, 2006 14:01:21 GMT 1
If it makes you feel any better Tabs I did some number crunching for locks last night, and whether +crit or +hit is better depends entirely on talent build. Yay!
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Post by Kurse on Jul 5, 2006 16:43:16 GMT 1
Sama, I see the point that it isn't the most clearly worded explanation in the blue post, but it seems absolutely consistant with the idea that theres just one roll with different % chances to hit, crit, dodge, miss or whatever. He explicitly says that crit rate is not based on hits only but all attacks and I'm not clear what your talking about with the "landed crit rate" - The way I understand it all crits land because its just one of a set of mutually exclusive outcomes of the one roll. So the post reads to me that +to hit items reduce the chance you will miss, +crit items make no difference to the chance you will miss, just decrease the chance that its only a normal hit.
Not really able to test it in the game as I don't fancy respeccing several times, but according to the figures that calculator is pumping out +crit is always better than +hit for combat rogues, even if they don't start with +5% to hit from precision skill - both seem to consistantly add more dps so are always worth getting (at least at the level of having top of the line blues) but crit seems to consistantly add more dps throughout a range of +crit and +hit combinations.) A few people have told me that +hit is more important for combat rogues than +crit, while its vice-versa for backstabby builds - this seems to hint that it might be true for all rogues that +crit is better.
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Post by Samathul on Jul 5, 2006 17:08:26 GMT 1
I'll try to reword what I mean, Tabs. While WoW may roll all of the calculations by a single roll, I'll roll the calculations out as a multiple calculations. Case 1:If "all attacks" are "all swings": 20%crit*.80%hit%= 16% swings landed as crits in the mob Now add +1 to +hit to the equation: 20%crit*0.81%hit% = 16.2% swings landed as crits in the mob ZOMG! +hit affected +crit!Case 2:If "all attacks" are "all hits that land on the mob". hits * 20%crit = 20%crit Now add +1 to +hit hits * 20%crit = 20%crit. 1% to hit is just converted from misses to normal hits, which will definitely show lower overall DPS than with having +1% to crit. If you look at Blizzard item stats values, it seems that Blizzard is aware that +hit is crappier stat for melee than +crit. This pretty much makes all of my arguments moot, since the game works not like I'm expecting it to work and Blizzard knows it. Blizzard statvalues for melee +hit and +crit: +%Crit = 3200 +%To Hit = 2200 For casters, the statvalues are: +%SpellCrit = 2600 +%SpellHit = 2500
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Post by Kurse on Jul 6, 2006 1:16:44 GMT 1
I think I'll talk to you about it in game rather than humiliate myself on forums
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Grul
Fallen
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Post by Grul on Jul 6, 2006 1:51:10 GMT 1
1% to hit is just converted from misses to normal hits, which will definitely show lower overall DPS than with having +1% to crit. Surely these give exactly the same thing? (ignoring talents) Assuming weapon damage of 100 per hit. Turning 1 miss into 1 hit adds 100 damage. Turning 1 hit into 1 crit adds 100 damage. Both will add the same overall... Crit will add the damage in bursts, +hit will add the damage more steadily. Against high level mobs (i.e. level 63 bosses), +hit is much more valuable, due to +crit being wasted due to glancing blows. On a mob 2+ levels higher than you, a hit/crit has a chance of being a glancing blow instead. The important thing is that glancing blows are deducted from your crit. +hit will instead recude your miss chance, which won't be so affected by glancing blows. See www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Weapon_Skill for some maths (plus warrior and rogue forums have similar maths I think)
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Post by Slyvar on Jul 6, 2006 2:01:01 GMT 1
I'd also be wary about judging it based on Blizz's stat ratings for +hit and +crit. Are those ratings more biased towards pvp or pve? +crit is almost always better in pvp at level 60, only a small amount of +hit can be used. But in pve as grul says, against a level 63 boss +hit will give you much better sustained damage than +crit.
At the end of the day +hit has been designed to be used in end game pve and +crit is general use/pvp. If it doesn't work out like that ingame, let's go after the coders with big sticks!
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Post by Samathul on Jul 6, 2006 9:57:55 GMT 1
Surely these give exactly the same thing? (ignoring talents) Actually no. (btw, I have a calculation error in my "case 1" scenario. That's what happens when you post while intoxicated. I had also a very long time to cypher what I actually meant by what I said.) Assuming 100 overall swings and that case 2 is true: 40 swings misses, 60 swings hits and 20 of those hitting swings will crit. Crit rate in this calculation is 33% (crit rate is calculated from actual swing that land on the mob) Now add 1 +hit 39 swings misses, 61 swings hits and 20.3333333333 hits crits. Crit rate is still 33%. Your DPS increases with 0.333333 from the crit AND by 1 from the added +hit, if case 2 is true. Comparing to case 1, where the "swings landed on mobs as crits" stays absolutely same in both examples, the DPS increase would only be 1. If case 2 is true, crit > hit for DPS hence the reason why Blizzard is valuing +crit more than +hit in their item stat values.
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Grul
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Posts: 777
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Post by Grul on Jul 6, 2006 10:42:16 GMT 1
Assuming 100 overall swings and that case 2 is true: 40 swings misses, 60 swings hits and 20 of those hitting swings will crit. Crit rate in this calculation is 33% (crit rate is calculated from actual swing that land on the mob) Now add 1 +hit 39 swings misses, 61 swings hits and 20.3333333333 hits crits. Crit rate is still 33%. Ah, but the game doesn't work like this. You're assuming that if player hits, then that hit has a chance to crit based on their crit rate. The crit % is the percentage if crits a player will get, calculated over both hits and misses. In your first example above, if they get 20 crits in 100 attacks, then their crit rate has to be 20%. If their crit rate was 33%, that extra crit gets subtracted from their hit chance. So if they had 33% crit they'd get: 40 swings misses, 27 swings hits, 33 swings crits Adding 7% crit: 40 swings misses, 20 swings hits, 40 swings crits Adding 5% hit: 35 swings misses, 25 swings hits, 40 swings crits If you added 30% crit to this you'd get: 35 swings misses, 65 swings crits (5% crit would be wasted, since all hits have already been converted to crits) In this scenario, all you'd get in combat would be misses and crits, a normal hit would be impossible, since you've replaced them all with crits (despite just having +65% crit). The game doesn't work our whether it's a hit, and then work out whether or not it's a crit afterwards, it decides at the start whether this attack is a miss/hit/crit. Or more simply, a player's crit chance is the chance that an attack is a crit, not the chance that a hit is a crit.
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Post by Samathul on Jul 6, 2006 11:13:38 GMT 1
If your assumption is correct, then do a test. Do 1000 swings against a mob and record your crit %. Do another 1000 swings against the same mobs, but this time add +hit, and only +hit equipment, while every other stat in your gear remains the same as in the first test.
For your assumption to be correct, then adding +hit will incur a % penalty to your crit % on landed hits. Ie, your amount of crits will stay the same (200 crits in the first test and 200 crits on the second test) but your overall % will decrease.
I have a hunch, that if adding +hit would incur a penalty to your crit %, we would see _alot_ more whining rogues in the official forums about how "+hit is a bad stat!".
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