Post by yavimaya on Aug 31, 2006 17:53:49 GMT 1
Bucket Guide to Vael
I appeciate this is a long post, but if all tanks can find the time to read and understand it, it will save us time in the long run. So please, have a look and post a /signed if you've read and understood and please ask any questions and I can answer and update this thread going forwards.
The first thing to note is that this fight is COMPLETELY different from any other fight you will have ever encountered. And that's one of the reasons why it is one of my favourite encounters. It is also very highly dependant on the tanks being spot on, so it is an opportunity for us to prove our worth (before we all get replaced by feral druids and loladins).
1) Positioning
Healers and DPS will position themselves against the wall, next to the doorway to Razorgore's room. On the opposite side of the room, against the far wall, the tanks will line up (with the exception of MT1). The blow up spot is next to the healer/dps group, but tanks should never ever have to worry about this.
On the first encounter with Vael, he will be snoozing courtesy of Neferian boring him to death with repeated prattle about futility and failure. This makes positioning very easy for the first attempt. Once we've finished chasing down the Gobo's, all groups can get in position. MT1 will stand where neferian was standing such that they are standing at Vael's head. For the whole fight we will be attempting to keep him facing the same direction that he currently lies in.
2) The start of the fight
Once the call goes out, the Main Tank will initiate the talking with Vael that activates the event. If some alliance n00bs have already wiped there and woken him up, then the Main Tank will simply pull by running from the blow-up spot to the tank position. Once either Vael has finished his talking (on a first attempt) or once tank has aggro'd Vael (on a subsequent attempt), Vael will place a buff/debuff on everyone in the group. NOW the fight gets interesting. The MT1 will start building aggro. DPS will wait two or three sunders before joining the fight. Our tank list will usually have 5 or 6 tanks on it. MT2 will ONLY start building aggro once MT1 has been attacking for about 4 seconds. MT3 will ONLY start building aggro once MT2 has been attacking for about 4 seconds. And so on and so on down the tank list. It is important tanks stay in the correct order for this fight and hence all should use Heroic strike and Sunder and nothing else to ensure aggro gain is consistent across the tank list. Vael is immune to taunt and hence aggro has to be controlled. Once you are the current tank, then you can go all out. Revenge, shield slam etc. Whatever gives you the most aggro. I normally use my troll berserking when I start tanking for example. Having a fast weapon also helps here for getting the HS's in, so things like Eskander's claw are pretty nice.
3) The buff/debuff
The b/d that Vael places is a 3minute Fire DoT that can not be removed except through death. Hence all classes should come equiped with a decent amount of FR for this fight to reduce the pain of the DoT and make healers lives easier. Tanks should be looking at somewhere around 200/250 FR and 6k hp ish. Basically, use your quality FR gear, but none of the green FR nrefing rubbish you may have. You need good tank equipment as well as good FR. The buff side of the b/d is that it gives all tanks essentially unlimited rage (all rogues unlimited energy and all healers unlimited mana). "Wahey! Woo!" I hear you shout. And shout you should, because it is this b/d that makes this encounter interesting.
4) Burning Adrenaline (BA)
At intervals through the fight, Vael will give one person BA. This is either the person with the highest aggro (i.e. the current tank) or a random mana user. From a tank point of view only the first case (the current tank) is of relevance. CTRaid will announce when someone gets BA. If it is the current tank, (e.g. MT1) then the next tank (MT2) will need to move to 45 degrees, i.e. halfway between the off-tanks who are busy attacking Vael's belly, and the current tank, who is busy with Vael's nose. This is because, once a tank has BA, their life-span becomes very very limited. When the tank gets BA they do not need to run to the blow-up spot, they carry on tanking Vael until they die. You do not explode if Vael kills you, you only explode if the BA kills you. BA reduces the tanks HP by a fixed amount every tick. This means that sooner or later Vael will one-shot the current tank and move onto the next on the aggro list. Step up tank number two. If MT2 has not moved from the OT group to the 45 degree spot by this point, then they risk getting all the dps/healer group tailwhipped and all the other OT's get cleaved and flamebreathed to death. This is why it is very important to move into position and why tanks need to react quickly. Once MT1 dies, MT2 gains aggro, and moves from the 45degree spot to the tank spot and the fight carries on as normal.
5) >> \/ /-\ 3 |_ at 20%, EXECUTE RANGE <<
Vael only starts at 30% because he's been fighting nefarian. This means that fairly early in the fight he moves into execute range. An announcement will go out for this and all tanks should stance switch to Battle and start executing (you can keep mixing in heroic strikes here too for more aggro). This provides a massive damage boost, but also should help tanks stay clear of the DPS and healers in terms of aggro. Even the current tank must do this, otherwise the other tanks will overtake and steal aggro and it wipes the raid.
Any warriors on DPS duty have to watch out. The aggro and damage you will generate at this stage will be huge, so be careful not to out-aggro the tanks.
6) Loot
GIEV EPIXXX please!
Additional points
- Our new ally
Recently, we have advised our raiders to install KTM Threatmeter. This is a beautiful mod, and incredibly useful for the tanks for this fight. KTM should be installed pre-raid (as it requires restarting wow to install it) by all buckets. This mod will give you a reasonably accurate indication of your current aggro on a targetted mob (in this case Vael). If you are very close or even ahead of a tank that is before you on the tank list, you should stop building aggro and let them get back ahead. Also, be ready to move to the tank spot if the current tank dies before the other tank has got back ahead of you. Word of warning though, KTM isn't perfect and often tanks wont even be on it for one reason for another. So use it as a guide, not as a bible.
- Tips and tricks
1) Using things like shield wall or last stand when you get BA can prolong your life and increase the chances of success for the raid.
2) Other buffs are always lush. Be them +stamina food, elixir's of brute force etc. etc.
3) Shaman totems. All tank groups should get shaman totems. Note that your shaman's will be on the other side of vael so tanks should get stuck right into Vael's belly to ensure they are in range of the totems. Shaman's should give the tanks Gift of Air rather than windfury. The randomness of WF procs makes keeping tank aggro in line more difficult. GoA will still give increase to dps and the agility will help with dodging Vael's physical attacks when it's your turn to tank.
4) Imp buff. Hopefully the first 4 tanks should all get an imp buff. This is easy to arrange on the first attempt as locks can place their imps in the right positions and then phase shift them out before the fight. I'm not sure how easy this is on subsequent attempts however.
- Most common mistakes
1) Not moving to the 45 degree spot / tank spot when required. As soon as the tank ahead of you gets BA you need to move to 45 degrees. Then, as soon as you get aggro, move to the tank spot.
2) Out of range of totems. You can attack Vael from a bit of a distance (since he's one BIG dragon), but you may need to hug him pretty tight to get the totems. Shaman's will obviously do what they can to make them accessible, but just keep an eye out. If you aren't getting your totems then your DPS will be lower and hence the tanks behind will overtake you.
3) Attacking too soon. Remember to wait for a few seconds to give the tank ahead of you time to build aggro. Remember, if you start too soon, it'll mean the tanks behind you will start too soon as well (since they will be watching you to see when to start). So, even if you succesfully pull your aggro back to stay behind the tank ahead, there is no guarantee the other tanks will do the same.
4) Over-aggro-ing. Often this is not the tanks fault. I've seen combat log shots of Vael avoiding 6 attack/sunders on the trot (dodges, misses, parries) and hence caused the tank aggro order to go wrong. If you steal aggro off the current tank, then move to the tank spot and just tank it out. Not much you can do about that, you're gonna confuse the hell outta healers anyway. If you can see on KTM you've jumped a spot, then just stop aggro until you go back below, but get ready to run to tank spot if current tank gets BA and you're still too high. This also goes for any buckets on DPS duty. If you're lucky enough to enjoy this fight without having to tank then watch you're aggro. Warriors not on the tank list (DPS warriors) shouldn't use heroic strike (or sunder obviously) as this generates extra threat. Just use auto-attack, overpower and bloodthirst/mortal strike until 20%. Once you get into execute range, then yes, execute away, but be aware dps specced tanks can easily soar ahead of prot speccers on aggro. So you have to be a little savvy, and if you're unlucky enough to catch aggro, then run to the spot and die like a hero. Always keep an eye on Vael's target since this will be the most accurate way of telling who has current aggro. It will jump to mana users briefly when he gives someone BA, so don't worry about that, but if you see your name on it, then you better hope to hell you're standing at the tank spot. If you're not, then you better get there quick!
5) Using different attacks. Whilst things like shield bash, mortal strike and bloodthirst are very shiny with unlimited rage, try and resist the temptation to use them when you're on the tank list. The most important aspect of this fight is for all the tanks to build aggro simultaneously, steadily and keep in the same order. Chucking some of these in can distort your position in the aggro list. Different specs presents enough of the problem, especially as we get below 20% and the dps speccers start building rage quicker than the prot speccers, so you have to hug your KTM and watch it like a hawk.
This is only a 3minute fight and it's great fun, but it does require maximum concentration, so make us proud!
/signed by
Tagaroth
Nelthas
Bagasas
Goromha
Krktie
Gromshal
Thramand
Grul
Terrel
I appeciate this is a long post, but if all tanks can find the time to read and understand it, it will save us time in the long run. So please, have a look and post a /signed if you've read and understood and please ask any questions and I can answer and update this thread going forwards.
The first thing to note is that this fight is COMPLETELY different from any other fight you will have ever encountered. And that's one of the reasons why it is one of my favourite encounters. It is also very highly dependant on the tanks being spot on, so it is an opportunity for us to prove our worth (before we all get replaced by feral druids and loladins).
1) Positioning
Healers and DPS will position themselves against the wall, next to the doorway to Razorgore's room. On the opposite side of the room, against the far wall, the tanks will line up (with the exception of MT1). The blow up spot is next to the healer/dps group, but tanks should never ever have to worry about this.
On the first encounter with Vael, he will be snoozing courtesy of Neferian boring him to death with repeated prattle about futility and failure. This makes positioning very easy for the first attempt. Once we've finished chasing down the Gobo's, all groups can get in position. MT1 will stand where neferian was standing such that they are standing at Vael's head. For the whole fight we will be attempting to keep him facing the same direction that he currently lies in.
2) The start of the fight
Once the call goes out, the Main Tank will initiate the talking with Vael that activates the event. If some alliance n00bs have already wiped there and woken him up, then the Main Tank will simply pull by running from the blow-up spot to the tank position. Once either Vael has finished his talking (on a first attempt) or once tank has aggro'd Vael (on a subsequent attempt), Vael will place a buff/debuff on everyone in the group. NOW the fight gets interesting. The MT1 will start building aggro. DPS will wait two or three sunders before joining the fight. Our tank list will usually have 5 or 6 tanks on it. MT2 will ONLY start building aggro once MT1 has been attacking for about 4 seconds. MT3 will ONLY start building aggro once MT2 has been attacking for about 4 seconds. And so on and so on down the tank list. It is important tanks stay in the correct order for this fight and hence all should use Heroic strike and Sunder and nothing else to ensure aggro gain is consistent across the tank list. Vael is immune to taunt and hence aggro has to be controlled. Once you are the current tank, then you can go all out. Revenge, shield slam etc. Whatever gives you the most aggro. I normally use my troll berserking when I start tanking for example. Having a fast weapon also helps here for getting the HS's in, so things like Eskander's claw are pretty nice.
3) The buff/debuff
The b/d that Vael places is a 3minute Fire DoT that can not be removed except through death. Hence all classes should come equiped with a decent amount of FR for this fight to reduce the pain of the DoT and make healers lives easier. Tanks should be looking at somewhere around 200/250 FR and 6k hp ish. Basically, use your quality FR gear, but none of the green FR nrefing rubbish you may have. You need good tank equipment as well as good FR. The buff side of the b/d is that it gives all tanks essentially unlimited rage (all rogues unlimited energy and all healers unlimited mana). "Wahey! Woo!" I hear you shout. And shout you should, because it is this b/d that makes this encounter interesting.
4) Burning Adrenaline (BA)
At intervals through the fight, Vael will give one person BA. This is either the person with the highest aggro (i.e. the current tank) or a random mana user. From a tank point of view only the first case (the current tank) is of relevance. CTRaid will announce when someone gets BA. If it is the current tank, (e.g. MT1) then the next tank (MT2) will need to move to 45 degrees, i.e. halfway between the off-tanks who are busy attacking Vael's belly, and the current tank, who is busy with Vael's nose. This is because, once a tank has BA, their life-span becomes very very limited. When the tank gets BA they do not need to run to the blow-up spot, they carry on tanking Vael until they die. You do not explode if Vael kills you, you only explode if the BA kills you. BA reduces the tanks HP by a fixed amount every tick. This means that sooner or later Vael will one-shot the current tank and move onto the next on the aggro list. Step up tank number two. If MT2 has not moved from the OT group to the 45 degree spot by this point, then they risk getting all the dps/healer group tailwhipped and all the other OT's get cleaved and flamebreathed to death. This is why it is very important to move into position and why tanks need to react quickly. Once MT1 dies, MT2 gains aggro, and moves from the 45degree spot to the tank spot and the fight carries on as normal.
5) >> \/ /-\ 3 |_ at 20%, EXECUTE RANGE <<
Vael only starts at 30% because he's been fighting nefarian. This means that fairly early in the fight he moves into execute range. An announcement will go out for this and all tanks should stance switch to Battle and start executing (you can keep mixing in heroic strikes here too for more aggro). This provides a massive damage boost, but also should help tanks stay clear of the DPS and healers in terms of aggro. Even the current tank must do this, otherwise the other tanks will overtake and steal aggro and it wipes the raid.
Any warriors on DPS duty have to watch out. The aggro and damage you will generate at this stage will be huge, so be careful not to out-aggro the tanks.
6) Loot
GIEV EPIXXX please!
Additional points
- Our new ally
Recently, we have advised our raiders to install KTM Threatmeter. This is a beautiful mod, and incredibly useful for the tanks for this fight. KTM should be installed pre-raid (as it requires restarting wow to install it) by all buckets. This mod will give you a reasonably accurate indication of your current aggro on a targetted mob (in this case Vael). If you are very close or even ahead of a tank that is before you on the tank list, you should stop building aggro and let them get back ahead. Also, be ready to move to the tank spot if the current tank dies before the other tank has got back ahead of you. Word of warning though, KTM isn't perfect and often tanks wont even be on it for one reason for another. So use it as a guide, not as a bible.
- Tips and tricks
1) Using things like shield wall or last stand when you get BA can prolong your life and increase the chances of success for the raid.
2) Other buffs are always lush. Be them +stamina food, elixir's of brute force etc. etc.
3) Shaman totems. All tank groups should get shaman totems. Note that your shaman's will be on the other side of vael so tanks should get stuck right into Vael's belly to ensure they are in range of the totems. Shaman's should give the tanks Gift of Air rather than windfury. The randomness of WF procs makes keeping tank aggro in line more difficult. GoA will still give increase to dps and the agility will help with dodging Vael's physical attacks when it's your turn to tank.
4) Imp buff. Hopefully the first 4 tanks should all get an imp buff. This is easy to arrange on the first attempt as locks can place their imps in the right positions and then phase shift them out before the fight. I'm not sure how easy this is on subsequent attempts however.
- Most common mistakes
1) Not moving to the 45 degree spot / tank spot when required. As soon as the tank ahead of you gets BA you need to move to 45 degrees. Then, as soon as you get aggro, move to the tank spot.
2) Out of range of totems. You can attack Vael from a bit of a distance (since he's one BIG dragon), but you may need to hug him pretty tight to get the totems. Shaman's will obviously do what they can to make them accessible, but just keep an eye out. If you aren't getting your totems then your DPS will be lower and hence the tanks behind will overtake you.
3) Attacking too soon. Remember to wait for a few seconds to give the tank ahead of you time to build aggro. Remember, if you start too soon, it'll mean the tanks behind you will start too soon as well (since they will be watching you to see when to start). So, even if you succesfully pull your aggro back to stay behind the tank ahead, there is no guarantee the other tanks will do the same.
4) Over-aggro-ing. Often this is not the tanks fault. I've seen combat log shots of Vael avoiding 6 attack/sunders on the trot (dodges, misses, parries) and hence caused the tank aggro order to go wrong. If you steal aggro off the current tank, then move to the tank spot and just tank it out. Not much you can do about that, you're gonna confuse the hell outta healers anyway. If you can see on KTM you've jumped a spot, then just stop aggro until you go back below, but get ready to run to tank spot if current tank gets BA and you're still too high. This also goes for any buckets on DPS duty. If you're lucky enough to enjoy this fight without having to tank then watch you're aggro. Warriors not on the tank list (DPS warriors) shouldn't use heroic strike (or sunder obviously) as this generates extra threat. Just use auto-attack, overpower and bloodthirst/mortal strike until 20%. Once you get into execute range, then yes, execute away, but be aware dps specced tanks can easily soar ahead of prot speccers on aggro. So you have to be a little savvy, and if you're unlucky enough to catch aggro, then run to the spot and die like a hero. Always keep an eye on Vael's target since this will be the most accurate way of telling who has current aggro. It will jump to mana users briefly when he gives someone BA, so don't worry about that, but if you see your name on it, then you better hope to hell you're standing at the tank spot. If you're not, then you better get there quick!
5) Using different attacks. Whilst things like shield bash, mortal strike and bloodthirst are very shiny with unlimited rage, try and resist the temptation to use them when you're on the tank list. The most important aspect of this fight is for all the tanks to build aggro simultaneously, steadily and keep in the same order. Chucking some of these in can distort your position in the aggro list. Different specs presents enough of the problem, especially as we get below 20% and the dps speccers start building rage quicker than the prot speccers, so you have to hug your KTM and watch it like a hawk.
This is only a 3minute fight and it's great fun, but it does require maximum concentration, so make us proud!
/signed by
Tagaroth
Nelthas
Bagasas
Goromha
Krktie
Gromshal
Thramand
Grul
Terrel
