Some patch 2.0 theorycrafting

[Samathul]

With patch 2.0 goes live shadowpriests VT, a spell that converts 5% of all the shadowdamage a priest does to mana for the whole group. It acts similar to VE, so every person in the group is egligible of that mana. How does it compare then? Is it worth having 4 healers and 1 shadowpriest or 5 healers healing wise? I'm comparing the mana obtained thorugh VT against my own regeneration while I'm healing.

First off lets calculate some shadowpriest DPS. I'm using only VT and MF. Using other spells will increase both DPS and manaregenerated significantly, but I'm too lazy to come up with a proper damage cycle so I take the easy way out.

VT, 5*MF, VT, 5*MF... ad nauseum.

Using 337 +shadow damage and all raid buffs that translates into:
(((426+337*0.57)*1,1*1.1*1.15*1.15*1.05)*5)dmg/16.5sec + ((640+337)*1.15*1.15*1.1*1.1*1.05)dmg/16.5sec = 414 DPS

414 DPS * 0.05 = ~21 mana per sec or 120MFS per person.

120MFS * 4 (the amount of healers in the shadowpriest group) = 480 MFS to the whole group that can be used for healing.

Now lets compare that against my own regenerating while healing somewhere in the BWL:
594.9,59.9,33013,-39579 Fight lasted 595 seconds and I used 39579 mana for heals.

If I was DPSing for the whole fight and converting my DPS to mana for the group, the group would have gained:

414*0.05*4*595= 61582 mana.

Doesn't need much explaining: 61k > 39k. And all that healing power came with "free" DPS from shadowpriest, 5% increased mage DPS and 15% increased warlock DPS.

A raidleader, that doesn't want to take a shadowpriest into raid in 2.0/tBC should resign immediately due to incompetence :]

[Fagur]

We're never getting a single priest to heal ever again. They'll all want to be VT/VE priests now. >)

[Maff]

An immediate issue that comes to my mind in your calculations is that:

> 414*0.05*4*595= 61582 mana

Do you mean that there was a single fight you dealt 246330 dam in alone? That
is not feasible, neither by mana considerations nor by tanks threat (I've seek like 200k no more on Sunday). I believe there is a flaw in your calculations.

[Maff]

Also, it is clear that you didn't heal all that fight non-stop. Otherwise, you would have to have like 300 Mp5. Most probably, you healed, stepped out to the 5-sec rule, then healed again.

[Draktull]

yes Fagur that could be a litlle problem.

as i heard a LOT of priests want to become shadow boyz after patch, i also thinking about that. (easier grinding pvp awards)
but after all shadow priest also can heal


i mean if you have +800 on heal you can be hunter and you will be able to heal

[Felbane]

of course shadowpriests can heal, just not as well.

also, I remain sceptic to the calculations, it seems a bit too good to be accurate.
That being said, I think its really neat, and it will definitely open up for more situations where a shadowpriest can be allowed to dps. The step from there to preferring this shadow dps over a healer however, is long.

as a comparative calculation, with my current gear and frost spec, I get something like 2.6-2.7 damage per mana spent. this is a lot more than trithia got as shadow, waay more, but lets use it to approximate a shadowpriest with better gear than trith had. I'm too lazy to come up with a better number.

2.6 * 1.6 * 0.05 = 0.208 VT thus yields 0.208 mana to each party member per mana the shadowpriest spends. (1.6 is the sum of the raid buffs samathul used in his calcs, don't ask me what they are tho.)

0.805 * 4 = 0.83 this amounts to 0.78 healer mana per spent shadowpriest mana, assuming he or she is grouped with 4 healers.

0.83 / 0,792 ~= 1,05 this is improved a bit since the shadowpriest regains a bit of mana from his/her own spells, to a total of 1,05 mana per mana spent.

This seems far away from the 61k > 39k in samathuls calculations. Now you can tell me that the shadowpriest might have better damage per mana yield, but then also remember that the above is an idealistic model not taking into account the VT mana cost etc etc, and the actual damage to mana ratio in a fight is much lower than in theory. Also consider that damagedealing allows for far less regen outside the 5 second rule, thus allowing the shadowpriest less total mana regen, meaning that he/she gets ever further away from generating more healer mana than by healing him/herself.


Edit: I lied, I wasn't too lazy. ;D the mana efficiency of samathul's gear used in his calculations is roughly 2.9 damage per mana spent, when using mind flay rank 6. this bumps the end result to 1.2 healer mana per shadowpriest mana spent.
Wether this outweighs the lower time outside 5 second rule, I do not know, but it is at any rate clear that the ratio samathul's calculations suggests isn't accurate.

(also, wether a healer can be replaced by a corresponding amount of mana seems doubtful to me. not only will total burst hps get nerfed, but the amount of eyes watching health bars will be fewer, and the increased healing demands on remaining healers might force them to use less mana efficient ways of healing to keep up. *shrug*)

[Samathul]

Hehe, I thought I was getting nonbelievish replies after that. Of course, that 414DPS throughout the whole fight is only attainable in ideal condition, which doesn't happen in the real game ever due to lag, resists ect and I'm assuming that the shadowpriest in question doesn't ever run oom. We know for sure when the patch goes live and after we have a fight where we have a shadowpriest DPSing :]

The "raid buffs" in that calculation are: Darkness (1.1), Curse of Shadows (1.1), Shadowform (1.15), full Shadow weaving (1.15) and Misery (1.05).

Not sure how any shadowpriest could get as low DPM in a bossfight as 2.5 as the base DPM with own buffs is already over 3 with both SW:P and MF in the live game already. With my current gear my DPM in raids is over 5 already, and in tBC it will go higher with new talents.

We'll see after the patch


Edit: ah yes Maff, no healer can heal nonstop inside FSR for a whole fight that last several minutes thus I'll be forced to step out of FSR to regen. The mana that is obtained through shadowpreist regen goes directly to healing, as even I'm prioritizing my limited mana in raids where I see the possibility to go oom in a whim with more damaged targets than what I have healing mana for. It's called priorization (...or:"Let the mages and rogues bite, keep tanks and healers alive" ) and it's a core priest skill in healing :]

[Samathul]

felbane said:

Edit: I lied, I wasn't too lazy. ;D the mana efficiency of samathul's gear used in his calculations is roughly 2.9 damage per mana spent, when using mind flay rank 6.

Humm?

((426+337*0.57)*1.1*1.1*1.15*1.15*1.15*1.05)/(205*0.85)= 5.96DPM for MF rank 6

and for VT rank 2

((640+337)*1.1*1.1*1.15*1.15*1.05/400 = 4.1DPM

Give your equation please

[Felbane]

where is the extra 1.15 from? and I was talking unbuffed mana efficiency. (since that is what I used in my calculations, buffs are applied on top of that.)
my equation was (426+337*0.57) / 210 ;D

also edit: you lost 15% mana cost somewhere too?

edit again: found the talent. ^_^

[Samathul]

felbane said:

where is the extra 1.15 from? and I was talking unbuffed mana efficiency. (since that is what I used in my calculations, buffs are applied on top of that.)
my equation was (426+337*0.57) / 210 ;D

Oooooooopsies, that single 1.15 is a typo. Doesn't affect the result as I didn't include the typo in the calculation. With that 'extra' 1.15 the DPM would be 6.85 (me likes!).

[Maff]

Eh... Felbane, something looks wrong. I can't check at this time (in the office), but I have like between 5 and 6 damage per mana point I think... Your 2.6 is way too low, perhaps you looked at wrong spell.

Just to tease Sama a bit, if we theorycraft shadow priests bonus to raid, let's not compare him doing something vs. doing nothing, but rather a shadow priest doing damage vs. holy/disk doing healing .

[Samathul]

maff said:

Just to tease Sama a bit, if we theorycraft shadow priests bonus to raid, let's not compare him doing something vs. doing nothing, but rather a shadow priest doing damage vs. holy/disk doing healing .

Aren't I already doing that? At least that's what my "61k > 39K" compare was all about. With shadowpriest DPSing you'll increased the healing output of that "holypriest that went shadow" by 50%.

And, zomg, shus mages. I would have thought that you'd rejoice of your extra 5% DPS what a shadowpriest would have induced to you when he's DPSing.

[Maff]

All mages love shadowpriests, Sama, even just due to VE . And I would be happy to get that mana bonus as well!

[Felbane]

oops! its early in the morning and I got it into my head that frostbolts were 410 mana. I should land on something like 6.3 damage per mana unbuffed after the patch. (mmmm empowered frost bolt <3)

this not counting the water elemental which is something like 10k damage for 242 mana. ^_^
(45 sec, 560 damage per bolt. (thats what felbsy's elemental on test realm does at least.) and I think 2.5 sec cast time on the bolts. I have confirmed that the elemental is affected by toep, not been bothered to test if the bwl trinket works yet.)


aanyway, sama, its not that I don't like shadowpriests, Its just that the math you presented looked a bit too good. =)

[Samathul]

They tried to increase shadowpriest's raid viability and they sure succeeded in it :] The math is sound with the results what people see in Beta. Altough, there hasn't been any raids yet in Beta, it looks good so far.

The best analogue what I found was comparing a shadowpriest in the group as a "major mana potion every minute" :]