Noob question about + to hit

[Kurse]

Sorry to bug you again, but I have read two different things about +to hit gear now, and I'm confused.

One thing I read says as much +to hit as you can get is better

Another thing says anything over +6% does nothing and that only +5% is usefull outside MC.

My practical experience - I have had +10% at one point while 60 (including precision talent) and have now got it down to +6% and I haven't really noticed myself missing at all with main hand. except while I was briefly alive during the Kurinaxx fight in AQ when I think I did miss even though at that stage I had +8% to hit... I might be mistaken tho.

[yavimaya]

Ugh!
I've read a fair few posts on this sort of thing as it is particularly applicable to a dual wielder and yet I still haven't fully grasped it, but I'll try and give a quick explanation of my limited understanding of it so the next poster (probably Grul, the swine!) can flame me into next week and give you a better answer.

Basically, when fighting a mob of the same level, you have a base 5% chance to miss (that excludes chances of them dodging, parrying etc.). So, if you get equipment or skills that give +5 to hit then you end up with a 0% chance to miss, MARVELLOUS! Any more +to hit is essentially wasted.

However, for every level higher that the mob is than you, you have an extra +1% chance to miss, so in MC when you are fighting mobs of lvl 61 or 62, then having +6% / +7% to hit still benefits.

On kurinaxx, chances are that you got hit by his lovely sandcastle debuff. This gives you +75% chance to miss. Now, unless you happened to wearing a HELLA lot of +hit gear, you're gonna have serious problems bashing the earwig and basically you'll just have to ride the misses out till the debuff wears off, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Now, for dual wielders, they automatically attract a massive penalty to hit for their off-hand (think it's somewhere in the region of 20%-30%). This means that +hit for them becomes even more important and there is all the more reason for them to go past the pre-advised +6%/+7% to hit because it will keep on helping overcome the DW penalty.

It's probably also worth pointing out that a miss will override a crit. Basically, you can't crit if you miss, otherwise everyone would be like:

*OMFG CR1T1C4L M155!!!!1!!1!eleven!!! NREF!!*

So having as low a chance to miss as you can, means you maximise your chance to crit. And crits are everything for fury warriors (and rogues as well I expect, I'm a complete rogue N00B!).

Infact, on a brief chat with one of the LoL DPS warriors, they recommended somewhere in the region of +15% to hit, for us dual wielders, and that aint easy to get, I assure you!

Anyway, I hope that helps a bit, I'll leave the rest up to my esteemed colleagues to further enlighten you (but basically it's all about roll charts, and maths and lots of *'s etc. etc. *yawn*)

Taga

[Kurse]

I'm not sure if its the same for warriors but I also read theres a hard cap on your off-hand chance to hit, so you could never have above a certain chance to hit with offhand (like 79% if my memory is right) but I'm not sure how much +to hit lets you hit that hard cap as a rogue... help !

[ukkoshukka]

Maybe I'm wrong, but this is how I believe dual wielding and +hit works:
1 - All melee skills have a 5% chance to miss(without any +hit gear, against equal level mob). If you are not dual wielding, this is also the base miss rate for your autoattack.
2 - When you dual wield, you get -19% to miss penalty on both main hand and off hand auto attacks. Melee skills(such as sinister strike etc) wont suffer these additional penalties.
3 - There used to be a hard cap on how much +hit you can have, but it was removed few patches ago.

Go ahead, prove me wrong!

[Slyvar]

I dont know if the to hit percentages work the same for melee as for spell casters (probably not). But are you sure about the fact that a mob higher than you only incurs a 1% penalty? On spells it works like this:

Level Difference	% chance to miss
0	4%
1	5%
2	6%
3	17%
4	28%

[/td][td]39%[/td][/tr][tr][td]5+x[/td][td]39% +11*x%[/td][/tr][/table]

Since raid bosses and some raid mobs are level 63, you have 17% chance to miss them. So in raids, lots of +hit is good (for casters). Although you do have to balance that against +damage stuff. Outside a raid at level 60, you wont find that many mobs that are level 63 so anything over 5 or 6% will be wasted.

Note that the calculation is different for player level differences. Poke me if you want it!

So anyway, not sure how that translates to melee and if it's the same calculation, but I suspect it probably is.

[Kurse]

Any rogues have anything to say to this ? I still don't feel like I know the answer ! and since a new talent will add weapon skill - how does that work exactly related to + to hit ? is it like moving up to levels on the chart slyvar put above - is that table even correct for rogues ? And is it right what Ukko says - that the hard cap on % to hit on off hand was removed ?

[mard]

1 - All melee skills have a 5% chance to miss(without any +hit gear, against equal level mob).

this is true.

2 - When you dual wield, you get -19% to miss penalty on both main hand and off hand auto attacks. Melee skills(such as sinister strike etc) wont suffer these additional penalties.

it used to be -24% and i believe it still is.

3 - There used to be a hard cap on how much +hit you can have, but it was removed few patches ago.

not sure

as for how much +hit one should aim for :
- for combat builds - as much as it's possible : those build give some huge white dmg crits, so every single +hit counts and boosts dps.
- for builds like seal fate, 21/8/22 - +5% min. to get 100% chance to hit with special attacks vs 300 def 60 lvl opponent - get more if you can, it wont hurt you, but it is not mandatory.

about +weapon skill - this reduce your chance to get so called glancing blows. someone did the math on rogue us forums, conclusion was that glancing blows reduce your dmg by about 30% on lvl 63 mobs (bosses).
+5 weapon skills reduce this to 15% damage lost
+10 gives you full dmg without reduction
more than +10 gives nothing

[Slyvar]

Tabs,

I've had a few people assure me that the caster +hit table doesn't translate to melee, so I'd ignore it if I were you

Sly

[Samathul]

Have the rogues come to a conclusion, if a crit can be a miss? Having crits automatically land would make +hit gear greatly inferior compared to +crit gear.

Ah, Yavi said that in his post.

I was reading a thread about this, and some players say that according to their addons, crits can't miss, and others say that crits can miss. Blue posts about melee hits and crits was inconclusive and had a high chance of misinterpretition.

[ukkoshukka]

mard said:

2 - When you dual wield, you get -19% to miss penalty on both main hand and off hand auto attacks. Melee skills(such as sinister strike etc) wont suffer these additional penalties.

it used to be -24% and i believe it still is.

I meant additional 19% penalty. Added to the normal 5% it makes a total of 24%, so we are both correct

[Grul]

samathul said:

Have the rogues come to a conclusion, if a crit can be a miss? Having crits automatically land would make +hit gear greatly inferior compared to +crit gear.

Ah, Yavi said that in his post.

I was reading a thread about this, and some players say that according to their addons, crits can't miss, and others say that crits can miss. Blue posts about melee hits and crits was inconclusive and had a high chance of misinterpretition.

I don't think it's a case of crits becoming misses really. The game does one "roll" on a table which looks something like the following:

Assume a player has
20% crit chance, 24% miss chance, opponent has 5% dodge, 5% parry

1-24: Miss
25-29: Dodge
30-34: Parry
35-80: Hit
81-100: Crit

Each +1% to hit a player gets is subtracted from their miss chance. So with +10% to hit, the table would look like:
1-14: Miss
15-19: Dodge
20-24: Parry
25-80: Hit
81-100: Crit

Each point of +1% crit is added to their crit chance, and taken away from hit. So adding +10% crit to the table above would give:
1-14: Miss
15-19: Dodge
20-24: Parry
25-70: Hit
71-100: Crit

In reality, there are also glancing blows to worry about. Best place to read about all this stuff in detail is www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Weapon_Skill

[Samathul]

Ah, so that's how it is calculated.

That directly nerfes +hit compared to +crit into oblivion DPS wise. Sounds a bit non-Blizzard like to me. Oh well, seems like my lowbie hunter alt will focus on +crit gear then

[Slyvar]

Sama,

I'd get your maths bott out if I were you. Whether +crit or +hit is better for DPS is a bit more complicated than just saying +crit is better. It all depends how much damage you miss out on every time you miss, and how much more damage you get when you crit. Against a level 63 boss, you're often better off with +hit. In general, a balance between +hit and +crit (and for casters +dmg) is good.

*snickers as he starts another marthon Sama calculation session*

[Samathul]

Hihi, since you asked for it Slyvar....

With 20% crit chance, 24% miss chance, opponent has 5% dodge, 5% parry and a single melee hit does 200HP damage.

1000*200-(miss%*10*200)-(dodge%*10*200)-(parry%*10*200)+(crit%*10*200)

Total damage done over 1000 swings: 172k
Total damage done with +10 hit: 192k
Total damage with +10 crit: 212k

The difference comes because it seems that melee +crit is +hit and damage increase all rolled in one. This is totally different from caster +crits, that have no influence wheter the spell hits or misses. In other words, a spell crit can miss, but a melee crit can't miss.


Yavimaya pretty much answered my original question in his post. My math is just schemantics and they're incorrect. Even a melee crit can be a miss, which makes +hit a better stat for both melee and casters over +crit.

[Grul]

Ya, another way of looking at it (very simply) for melee is:

Assume a player does 100 damage with a melee hit.

+1% hit turns 1 miss into a hit instead = 0 damage -> 100 damage = 100 damage added
+1% crit turns 1 hit into a crit instead = 100 damage -> 200 damage = 100 damage added

They're even on paper.. But then you have to take into account all the things that trigger from crits (flurry, deep wounds), and all the things that trigger off hits (crusader procs, windfury procs, rage generation).

Special attacks (sunder armour, Mortal Strike) have a base 5% chance to miss. Getting +% hit helps sunders land for example, but since they can't crit, +% crit doesn't affect them, so for a tank, +%hit would be more valuable.

For a warrior with imaple and flurry, a hit with a special would do weapon damage + special damage (i.e. heroic strike, mortal strike, bloodthirst). A critical hit would do double that damage + 20% (from impale), trigger deep wounds (DOT on the enemy for 60% of weapon damage), trigger flurry (+attack speed for the next 3 hits).

In general, a balance between the 2 is needed I guess!