A question about "Skill"

[Tardon]

This is a repost from a thread I posted on the WoW mage forums, but I'm curious what you guys have to say about it too.

Now, I've been looking at discussions, pvp videos, and... more discussions.
One thing that always comes up:

A firemage with PoM and a damage trinket = "noob".

Now I'm asking... why?

Lately I've noticed something: Frostmage with PoM = not a "noob" (we'll get to the trinket later).

A mage with engineering is usually cheered upon (I have even seen comments like "l2play and get engi").

I have yet to see any other class get flamed by their own class for using a certain spec to well.

Now comes the trinket: the second you use ZHC or ToEP, you are a "noob".
The interesting thing is... if a mage has +200 more damage gear, and didn't use the trinket, he/she would not a "noob". Even though the result would be the same (actually constant damage with the gear, not the trinket).

Now, some might argue that somehow trinkets arent "gear". Or that because it has a cooldown, is not dependant.
That begs the question: Then why is engineering cheered upon? Ya know... those grenades has a cooldown too.

About PoM: First off, it seems only to be a "noob" talent if used by a Firemage. It does not matter if the firemage uses it for a sheep, or a pyro. Its still a "noob" talent spec.
If a Frostmage uses PoM, its suddenly no longer a "noob" talent, no matter how used.
Another interesting thing is, that if a Firemage uses PoM, he is to cooldown dependant. But yet we see countless PvP videos, highly rated and valued, where Frostmages use every single cooldown they have... yet this is "skill".

Start to see what I'm getting at?
I personally also find it funny, that mage is the only class in the game that insists on making PvP harder for themselvs, spesificly by not taking these "noob" talents.

Anyway,
/discuss

[zabam]

why care about those idiots?? Every mage who has some respect for what mage is, are fire mages. End of discussion.

[Fagur]

That strikes me as incredibly dumb. Why the hell can't mages, and all classes for that matter, just use any tool or talent Blizzard gave them without being called "noob"? Like wtf is wrong with taking a potion? Isn't that what they're there for? Especially potions that are -made- to be used in BGs.

I totally don't get it, Tardy. Especially since there's apparently a difference between a frosty and a fiery using PoM. People just baffle me sometimes. (Or should I say children.)

[drisnak]

Well the gross reals come do you think they will not use potions in duels? Oh they will so kick our asses if we think that argent dawn
rules will apply in cross realms

[Felbane]

its caused by a combination of two things.

first, its people's inclination to call anyone they dislike for any reason a noob, not because they sincerely think he or she lacks skill, but as an insult.

second, it stems from the Sheep - AP+dualtrinket - FB - PoM - Pyro - Fireblast - iaespam tactic used by every cookiecutter mage out there for quite some time that seriously left very little to skill. Since then, trinkets AP and pom all carry a label of noobness, especially in combination with fire spells.

that being said, I can't say I call any tactic depending much on cooldown skills/equip (at least cooldowns longer than say 20 seconds or so.) skillful.
If you can fight someone and get owned, then fight him and own him 3 fights in a row as long as they happen in rapid succession, then the guy IS a trinketnoob. theres plenty of them out there.

[nodonn]

“Skill” in this game is not when you get the big crits; its when your spell are resisted, your melee hits blocked (or your 31point talent get resisted 3times in a row!><) and you are still able to turn the tide of the fight in your favour- with whatever means needed.

[Guava]

combution > PoM pvp


next

[Guava]

nodonn said:

“Skill” in this game is not when you get the big crits; its when your spell are resisted, your melee hits blocked (or your 31point talent get resisted 3times in a row!><) and you are still able to turn the tide of the fight in your favour- with whatever means needed.

if you think 3 resists stop combution you dont know how it works

[nodonn]

if you think 3 resists stop combution you dont know how it works

1. I have no idea what “combution” means.

2. As I have already whispered to you in-game, and tried to say to you nicely over many many times now- Please step down from your high horse. Stop thinking you know more then everyone else, stop thinking you are better then anyone else, and for Gods sake, stop talking about things you have no clue about!

[Kurse]

Generally I don't like pvp that much and this thread exemplifies the two main reasons:

1) Its only a little bit about skill, more important is knowing the correct sequence of moves that gives whichever class your fighting as little chance as possible of reacting. Even if your build isn't "cookie cutter" you are pretty much tied to a certain attack sequence in whatever situation you find yourself in - you can do other stuff, you might even win, but it isn't the optimal approach.Therefore striking first is the most important factor in most fights. I don't feel the game is particularly balanced between the classes in this respect either, and this gives people the sense that following the optimal attack sequence leads to an unfair advantage and hence the right to call the person using it a "noob" - Ironic really "You know the tactic that will usually let you win, so you are a noob."

2) It does seem to lead to a lot of bad-mouthing, conflict and drama in various shapes and forms. I guess this is human nature when people go head-to-head against each other, but is it not possible to be a bit less confrontational when having a more general discussion such as this ?

[nodonn]

My last bit was not about pvp. It was my personal view on Guava’s behavior over a long period of time. It might not have been the best please to utter it, but lets just say I have had enough, and are finding it very hard to constantly being “overbearing” to her “way of saying things”.

[Tardon]

felbane said:

second, it stems from the Sheep - AP+dualtrinket - PoM - Pyro

Fixed it for ya... It basicly stems (imo) from the time where you could oneshot people, with Arcane Power and the Dual trinkets... both nerfed now... arcane power does 5% less damage, and both trinkets can't be used at the same time.

Though Felbane, there is a whole in your theory... your saying cooldowns make you bad (if you depent on them)... but if you have just as strong talents, on a way lower cooldown, it dosn't matter? Thats just wrong :S
If you go that direction, it should be said that anyone who depends on TALENTS is skilless. Just because it has a cooldown, dosn't make it a win button.
Also... lets take a look at frost mages. Shatter. Crit is a chance. So winning your fights because of shatter, means that it was chance, which means your skilless. Now, you'll say "thats my build, depending on shatter proc'ing"... well people can say that "thats my build, depending on that Arcane Power isn't on cooldown". Heck... You might even be able to call AP more skillfull than Shatter, because you KNOW its gonna work, whereas crits is a chance.

Basicly what I'm trying to say is, that the only possible "noob" build there could be, would be the old AP+dualtrinket build, where you could oneshot people with one button. But that dosn't exist anymore.
Everyone relies on their talents, and their build. Whether that build has cooldowns or not, dosn't make it less "overpowered", which would lead to "noobness".

Make sense?

[Guava]

nodonn said:

if you think 3 resists stop combution you dont know how it works

1. I have no idea what “combution” means.

thats the 31 point fire talent YOU yourself talked about. you wrote YOURSELF (i repiet), YOURSELF "(or your 31point talent get resisted 3times in a row!><)" witch clearly shows you dont know how this talent works.

2. As I have already whispered to you in-game, and tried to say to you nicely over many many times now- Please step down from your high horse. Stop thinking you know more then everyone else, stop thinking you are better then anyone else, and for Gods sake, stop talking about things you have no clue about!

.. eee.... wtf are you talking about? Maybe you should know your self wtf are you talking about? who is playing the "i-know-everything" now? you been playing this little game for 3 months or so now

[Tardon]

Guava, he meant you misspelled "Combustion"... you spelled it "Combution"

[Guava]

okey i may spelled it wrong (like every 3rd word in each sentence) but that dosent give mr o mighty 2nd high warlord on ad to talk nuts about others

why dose the S word apier as nuts here?